Post in which Jara does discuss Kara/Lee

[woodface]

Because ilanabean42 asked and this way I just have to point and say "go read there".

First of all, I want to make it clear that I recognise Kara/Lee as semi canon. I just don't believe in the ship as something that will work. My theory is that Kara/Lee is doomed to fail because whatever they have between them is there for all the wrong reasons. So here in semi organised points my arguments on why I do believe that this ship is damned to fail.

I have already seen a lot of speculation about who Kara met first; Zak or Lee. I actually tend to lean towards the latter because they do seem to have a lot of history together and I find it hard to believe this happened after Zak's death. (From what I gather Kara and Lee didn't see each other much after the funeral as Kara got assigned to the Galactica and seems to be taking Adama's side in the argument. But that's a whole different post.) I believe that Zak was Kara's one big love. That after a whole lot of crap, Kara met someone who she felt good with, maybe even at peace. There is not much to base this on, but I think it's Kara's character that convinces me here the most. She strikes me as someone who would not easily agree to get married, the fact that she did get engaged seems to speak for how much she did love Zak. Any theories on how Zak was second choice or how she really fell in love with Lee, but settled for Zak are a load of bull, IMO. Kara does not settle. Kara wants, Kara gets. If she had anything with Lee before the miniseries, I think it must have happened before she met Zak. So yeah, ancient history IF (and I highly doubt it) they had something going on.

Now looking at this from Lee's side, I do can see how he might have had something for Kara but never acted upon it because she was with his brother. Maybe he did feel like the one standing to the side and watching Kara sleep with almost everyone, but never getting a chance himself. Jumping forward in time, I do think that Lee has a crush on Kara as is evidenced in his behaviour in KLG. Actually, Lee's feelings are sorta second fiddle in this argument because while he has his own issues, I do believe Kara/Lee is mostly doomed because of Kara's issues and not so much Lee's.

Anyway. There is little in the series that strikes me as evidence for UST between Kara/Lee. Pretty much anything can be seen as friendship. I think the first indication of feelings between them was in Act of Contrition and You Can't Go Home Again where the two Adama's do pretty much anything to get Kara back. Adama sees her as a daughter, Lee... as a friend or maybe more if you want to think that. Again, I'll be open minded here and maybe Lee does feel something for her, but nothing that says "OMG he is in love". If anything, these episodes confirmed one thing; Kara is still not over Zak. She spent two years not telling anyone about her part in Zak's death. That's two years living with a sense of guilt and forcing herself to not let go of Zak. I think she believes that she has to live with this guilt forever, that it is her burden to carry. Now Adama has forgiven her, but I don't think she has forgiven herself. Perhaps a first step has been taken here for her to heal, but I think this one moment between her and Adama didn't magically make it go away. (In a way I see her refusal to get up and walk on her knee as a nice symbolism of her refusal to forgive herself for what happened to Zak.)

I have some issues with Colonial Day and KLG1. The Kara/Lee moments feel forced to me. Mostly because we have seen how much Kara is still holding on to the memory of Zak and how suddenly out of the blue we get this attraction between Kara and Lee. If TPTB had not made Kara shout out "Lee" while having sex with Gaius, I would have been able to understand her behaviour better. Actually, I might even have been more open to accepting the attraction if they had not done this. KLG would have worked perfectly without that one word.

Alas, the word was there so my over enthusiastic brain needs to analyse it. Why this sudden attraction from Kara towards Lee when only a few weeks ago (if we can believe the captions the entire S1 spans over 51 days) she was still clinging to Zak? I can only explain it as a projection of Kara's feelings for Zak onto Lee. I kinda like the image anr created of Kara needing someone to push back. I wonder in what way Zak used to do that for her (or maybe he even took the need to push away). Lee is Zak's brother, someone who probably actively reminds her of Zak in one way or another (mannerism, behaviour or maybe just the mere fact that obviously the three of them used to hang out together). I can see Kara who has been going through some of the hardest experiences of her, trying to cling to what is familiar. Lee is familiar. And maybe that evening at the party, Lee struck something inside of her that felt comfortable and that she might like. Something that scared her and made her sleep with Gaius instead. Out comes the oh so unfortunate "Lee" cry and the next day she has to deal with an overly jealous Lee who apparently does have a thing for her after all. (Because the part and then the fallout of it does prove to me that Lee has feelings for Kara.)

I can imagine that shippers will take the arguments I just used to proof that Kara might actually feel something for Lee. However, I think what she feels for Lee is there for all the wrong reasons. It's more a projecting of her feelings for Zak than anything else. Perhaps she's thinking it might be nice to love Lee, that maybe it would be like what she had with Zak. Truth is, it's not. Lee is not Zak. Something that she might realise if they get more time. I think I might be open for Kara/Lee if they wait for another season or two (I only want maximum 3 seasons of BSG), if they give Kara the chance to get over Zak and see Lee for who he is and not whose brother he was. She also needs to forgive herself for what happened to Zak. Because if Kara and Lee get together without them resolving what I just pointed out, Zak will come to stand between them. Kara will still hate herself and come to realise that Lee can not replace Zak. Lee isn't dumb either and he will resent Kara for using him like that. Further more, I think Lee might end up hating Kara if she does not get over Zak and her feelings of guilt.

My point? Unless Lee and Kara change their relationship drastically and do not get over their issues, anything between them will fall to pieces and they'll hate each other. I like my ships to have some chances of making it. Kara/Lee strikes me as doomed.

Right, I think that's all I can possibly say on this pairing.

*eyes post* I'm sure you're full of typo's and the likes but I'm too lazy to read you through again at the moment. I'm also sure that I will regret ever writing you, too. (I need to stop talking to my post.)

Comments

[ilanala]

It's funny because this is almost the opposite of the rabid shipper argument that Kara only fell in love with Zak because he was like Lee, but easier to deal with. I agree with you completely that that's stupid because Kara wouldn't agree to marry someone she didn't really love, but I'm don't really think she loves/likes/has some vague interest in Lee bcause of Zak either. I guess I'm at sort of a middle ground where I think they both have real feelings for each other, but they both have so many issues, on their own and together, that it'll take a ton of resolution before they could ever get together. And that's why I don't want them to, at least not for a while (and not just because I like my UST better than blatant shippiness).

Anyway, thanks a lot for the explanation. My friends list seems to be largely made up of Lee/Kara shippers, snd it's nice to see some other points of view.

[woodface]

I think I could see your point if they had given the ship more time to grow. The way they did it now feels like they suddenly decided that "there will be ship" and then there was ship. If there had been more hints of UST or if this had happened after another season with a lot of UST, I might have accepted it. It suddenly felt like a done deal while I needed some time to open up to the pairing.

I agree though. I prefer UST, I quickly lose my interest in blatant ship.

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

I have to rabidly fangirl you now. Like, seriously.

[woodface]

*ponders* Now that sort of rabidness I can deal with ;o) *snickers*

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

I promise I'm not the scary kind of rabid. ;) Well, most of the time.

[woodface]

So no pet bunnies dead in the kitchen?

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

Erm. *shifty-eyed look*

No. *g*

[woodface]

Good. Not that we have a pet bunny. My sis does, though, and it's evil.

[sideofzen.livejournal.com]

Any theories on how Zak was second choice or how she really fell in love with Lee, but settled for Zak are a load of bull, IMO. Kara does not settle. Kara wants, Kara gets.

Oh, word to the power of word. This is one of my biggest fandom peeves.

Kara/Lee is not going to be happily ever after like John/Aeryn. They're going to angst and angst and angst, frak a couple of times and then it'll be over. =P

And then we can move on.

[woodface]

*nods* I can see that. I'm even open to reading Kara/Lee fic as long as it ends really bad. I just don't want to get invested in a pairing I don't believe in. And I could actually do well without Kara/Lee at all. I love their friendship and their banter, frakking each other will frak that up and that would be sad.

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

There is not much to base this on, but I think it's Kara's character that convinces me here the most. She strikes me as someone who would not easily agree to get married, the fact that she did get engaged seems to speak for how much she did love Zak. Any theories on how Zak was second choice or how she really fell in love with Lee, but settled for Zak are a load of bull, IMO. Kara does not settle. Kara wants, Kara gets.

Must second the "word" on this. It really does a horrible disservice to Zak, to Kara, and to the obviously very strong feelings Kara had toward him to say that she "settled" for him. Not to mention the fact that we know so little about Zak that such a theory is specious at best. I tend to think that Zak was very different from his brother, personality-wise, but again that's just my personal speculation since we have so little to work with.

Kara doesn't strike me as someone who would knowingly commit herself to possibly a lifetime of living the kind of deception (self-deception and otherwise) that marrying the brother of the man she was really in love with would have been. I could be wrong, of course -- I just haven't seen enough in canon so far to disabuse me of that notion. :)

[woodface]

I don't think you're wrong. Gods, I hope not because I really don't want that sort of thing to be canon for Kara. I get the impression that Zak was somewhat easier to get along with, btw. But yeah, they're just impressions.

[ehab-it.livejournal.com]

This was a really interesting perspective and really highlights what I agree was the forced nature of events in the last two episodes.

I have a fanwank I'm letting myself believe right now not knowing the history Lee and Kara have. I believe they were a couple before she got involved with Zak. The reference to a Major Kara slept with is my only real evidence, that and the conclusion most of us have reached that they knew each other before.

I can accept that Lee is a viable love interest for her in that he was once before. But the complications there are enormous.

I wonder if you'd consider posting a link to this in bsg_women. Its fascinating.

Also, I hope its alright if I friend you.

[woodface]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I agree on the Major actually being Lee, but it's a possibility. There really is no evidence either way to say if they were involved or not. Although, I tend to think they weren't but it's an interesting enough idea to explore in fic. Oh boy, it would sure make everything even more complicated than it already is. *g*

I shall post a link there in a second.

And nope, don't mind at all. *goes friend back*

[ehab-it.livejournal.com]

Oops. I meant the fling with the Major was in part responsible for ending their relationship.

As I say, its only fanwank at this point.

Yay! New friend :).

[woodface]

Ah! Oops. Ooooooooooo, now there's a thought.

*chuckles*

[lytarules.livejournal.com]

*shields eyes*

Remind me to read this next Saturday or so...

[woodface]

Er okay *g*

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

I think you've articulated my feelings on the subject pretty much perfectly.

Although, as I said in my own journal last night, my interpretation of Lee's behaviour in KLG1 is that he's (subconsciously, of course) keeping Kara for Zak. He doesn't want her to sully his brother by proxy, which is what her promiscuous behaviour could do.

[woodface]

That's another possible theory. One I actually used when I had just seen Act of Contrition and You Can't Go Home Again. To me that episode really felt like the two Adama's trying to save a family member. I think I kinda changed my mind after Colonial Day. Lee did seem somewhat look awed by Kara in a dress. It was like suddenly a light bulb went up and he realised that "OMG she's a girl!" (Because his remark about her hygiene was very sibling like.)

But errr, I'm open to your interpretation.

/ramble ;o)

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

my interpretation of Lee's behaviour in KLG1 is that he's (subconsciously, of course) keeping Kara for Zak. He doesn't want her to sully his brother by proxy, which is what her promiscuous behaviour could do.

Hey, I hadn't thought of that, but I really do like that interpretation.

[leda13.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I see a lot of interesting points here, and while I'm probably one of those 'rabid' shippers, I don't see things panning out easily for Lee and Kara either. Certainly no 'happy ever after' endings, because the show can't last long enough for that.

Re Zak: I'm one of the people who postulate that Kara and Lee were close before Zak, but I hesitate to think it went anywhere intimate. Maybe they were thinking about it, but we already know from Lee's bios that he was enormously career driven and didn't spend time dating while he was studying. So if anything, it was an unacted-upon interest, possibly on both sides. Where Zak comes into it then has a new possibility. Kara, being good friends with Lee and keeping everyone in general at a distance, might simply have let Zak closer faster on the strength of what she knew / liked about his brother. I would think the Adama boys had at least some similarities, and enough differences, to let Zak appeal to her. From there, it's not much of a step for Kara to fall for the younger man.

I also don't see Lee being anything like his brother, personality wise. We already can hypothesise from the photo (Zak is much more relaxed and openly affectionate than Lee) and from the fact that he is with Kara, one of his instructors, at all, that Zak is much more open and relaxed about his feelings and nowhere near so attached to the rules. I do see some similarities in their behavior - ambition and attitude - but with the destruction of the colonies, there isn't a great deal of room for any ambition. I'm waiting for Lee - and Kara for that matter - to realise how cut off they are from the past. Like the whole Zarek thing in Colonial Day, I think there's going to come a time when the military personnel need to be reassured that the structure isn't static or power-based, that they're not clinging to regulation for the wrong reasons. I don't really think that it could happen soon, though, and certainly not soon enough to make a difference in the near future.

Back to Zak: None of my fanwanking allows at all for Kara not to be absolutely committed to Zak. She compromised her judgement and broke a lot of rules for this guy, and her coping mechanisms since his death have all been pretty destructive. She is too strong minded to fuck up so badly over a guy she didn't absolutely love. And I think you're absolutely right about her not being over Zak, but not to the extent you think it seems to haunt her. It's there, and she worries about fucking up and getting anyone else hurt, but now that she's not keeping her guilt all pent up.. well, maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but that should let her heal a little more.

Which brings me back to the thing with Lee. Perhaps I'm oriented that way, but I saw huge interest in both of them, from the get go. I really did. The buddy thing was nice and strong, but when they look at each other... *shivers*. I am of the opinion that they'll give in and screw, then angst for ages, then give in again, and have a seriously pained are-they-or-aren't-they thing going on for a good long while. Then something will happen to one of them *wince* or the series will die. It's pretty obvious already that they can't keep the lines between friendship and relationship straight here, and I don't see either of them being able to walk away completely.

[woodface]

Well, I pretty much agree on what you said about Zak and Lee. At this moment the history between Lee and Kara is pretty much open for all theories so you could be right. But yes, it is definitely not Kara's character to settle. Absolutely no way.

Heh, I just don't see the UST like I do with for example Sam/Jack or John/Aeryn. Partly because I don't want to, maybe. I also do not want them to go all angsty around each other. I love their interaction as it is. Too much of KLG and it would get tiresome. I really do like their friendship and don't want to lose that on screen.

[zorb]

Any theories on how Zak was second choice or how she really fell in love with Lee, but settled for Zak are a load of bull, IMO.

*nods vigorously*

I also agree with you that there are way too many Issues between them for a functional relationship to occur right now, but I do think they've got massive UST. Interpretation difference, I suppose. If the writers are smart, they'll drag it out longer, too (though hopefully not to the point of X-Files-ish ridiculousness and bleh - it's a tricky line). I haven't seen KLG2, but Kara had a point when she called herself a screw-up, to an extent - she's not in a good headspace to have a mature, lasting relationship, which is what I think K/L has the potential to eventually be. She - and he, for that matter - are still carrying too many guilt and inadequacy issues (and I don't think Zak is a major one of them, anymore, though it's there).

But that doesn't make their interaction any less charged and the good smutfic any less hot. *g*

[woodface]

Hrm, I don't see the massive amount of UST. Maybe because I don't want to, dunno. I do see it somewhat in the mini but haven't seen it in the series itself. But that's probably personal. I haven't really wanted to see it.

I agree on their issues, I do think Zak is a major one of them though.

[stars-like-dust.livejournal.com]

*doesn't say anything*

[woodface]

OMG! Are you sure you're going to survive this?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

*eyes you both*

[woodface]

What did I do?

[livilla.livejournal.com]

There is actually a very good chance they'll change their relationship, because technically they've only been in continuous contact for 51 or so days. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you because I haven't seen as many eps as you have and also, because it's not my OTP! *runs around, flaunting her fun, yet angsty, ship* Bring on Roslin/Adama!

*is a little psychotic happy right now*

[woodface]

Well yeah, but dude, it hasn't, that's the problem.

*pats*

[livilla.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Sadly, I know. But it does take a while for people to change, though. Right?

*beam*

Hmm...

[tmelange.livejournal.com]

You don't take into account Kara's actions in the mini when she thought Lee was dead and he then showed up on the flight deck. I do think that that scene could support a theory that Kara cares for Lee independent of any association in her mind with Zak.

I do wholeheartedly agree with this:

>>Any theories on how Zak was second choice or how she really fell in love with Lee, but settled for Zak are a load of bull, IMO.<<

I hate to see authors dismiss Kara's feelings for Zak by making her love for him play second fiddled to some repressed feeling for Lee. I thought it was pretty clear from the flashbacks and Kara's reactions in "You can't go home again." that she really loved Zak, still loves him and has yet to get over him completely. I don't think it's consistent with Kara's characterization to just dismis her realtionship with Zak.

So, I although I do think Kara will end up with Lee because of the state of things post-holocaust, I do think it will be fraught with problems: Lee would always feel like second fiddle and Kara will always feel guilty...

Re: Hmm...

[woodface]

Hmm, actually I do take that scene into account but I can not see it as proof of Kara having romantic feelings for Lee. Sure, she was worried but I do really hope she'd be as worried for a friend.

So, I although I do think Kara will end up with Lee because of the state of things post-holocaust, I do think it will be fraught with problems: Lee would always feel like second fiddle and Kara will always feel guilty...

*nods* Not really the best circumstances for a relationship. I can really see that causing rifts between them.

Re: Hmm...

[eken95.livejournal.com]

<

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<hmm,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<<Hmm, actually I do take that scene into account but I can not see it as proof of Kara having romantic feelings for Lee. Sure, she was worried but I do really hope she'd be as worried for a friend. >>

I think if this was just friendship they'd have hugged, I'd hug a friend who I'd thought was dead. But they don't, but just can't look away from each other.

Re: Hmm...

[woodface]

Maybe, depends on the friendship really. I have plenty of friends I don't hug. Not everyone is touchy feely.

Re: Hmm...

[fried-flamingo.livejournal.com]

I certainly would agree that Zak was not a second choice for Kara. There is absolutely no denying that she genuinely loved him. Its not going to stop her loving/being attracted to his brother. Especially 2 years later. I don't think there would've been anything between them in the past. Maybe a flirtation, or an underlying attraction but I find it hard to believe they would've acted on them. Any conscious feelings on either side have probably only developed since Lee came onboard the Galactica.

I personally am looking forward to seeing where the writers go with these two.

Laura :)

[lizardlaugh.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with every bit of this... but I still ship it (not rabid shipper, but I am just not a rabid shipper period). While conflict makes for heartbreak and being miserable in real life, in fiction it makes the story more interesting. I totally agree, for the relationship to not be totally doomed Kara has to come to terms with the past, forgive herself, see Lee as Lee, etc. With all of the rest of the drama and human conflict on BSG, I think Kara/Lee (in whatever form) fits right in.

[woodface]

*nods* It does fit in with the series. I just can personally not get myself to be invested in something that I don't believe will work out. You're right though, it can make an interesting story.

[fried-flamingo.livejournal.com]

A lot of excellent points made in both the original post and the replies and while I am a unashamed Lee/Kara shipper I do agree with a lot of what you say. This relationship is already dysfunctional even before there is any consumation. Lee is so tightly wound on all levels he is just a big bag of suppressed energy and self control. Kara on the otherhand is nothing but energy but its all raw, violent energy. At the same time she will not allow herself to feel anything that might ultimately make her happy. The girl is on a self destruct course. They are two very f**ked up individuals (Kara more so than Lee who is mainly dealing with his issues with his father. )
Add to that mix the baggage that both of them are carrying from the past regarding Zak's death and we're talking about a volatile, messed up situation. Any relationship that comes out of this is not going to be hearts and flowers. It will be tense. It will be dramatic. But isn't that part of the appeal of this amazing show and isn;t that what keeps us watching? I love angst and I love conflict. Its not the resolution that I'm looking for its the drama that unfolds along the way and with these two I think we'll get plenty of that.

Laura :)

[woodface]

You know, when you put that down I can only nod and think that it does sound interesting. I guess the other thing I miss to like the pairing is the UST, which while clearly obvious to a lot of people, escapes me.

I do agree with your views though =o)

[(Anonymous)]

Kara Thrace is in love with all the Adama men. In what form, now that's the debatable part. That the boundries might blur and become misplaced for Starbuck doesn't surprise me in the least.

As for Zak, I don't believe her issue is with his death as much as her part in it. It's foolish to believe that people should put their lives on hold because of personal issues (as foolish as the idea that love can magically solve them). Does anyone advocate that Billy shouldn't date Dualla because his entire family (presumably) died less than two months ago?

[woodface]

Well, if you say "in love", you're kinda already determining the form. And she's so not "in love" with Adama.

As for Zak's death, I think that her part in his death is what makes her incapable of letting him go. And, she does seem to have put a part of her life on hold.

Errr, I'm drawing a complete blank on Billy right now.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, if you say "in love", you're kinda already determining the form. And she's so not "in love" with Adama.

I don't really feel up to arguing the semantics of "love" versus "in love" when my intended point was that those neat little labels don't apply to the situation in the slightest.

I can see Kara easily falling for Lee. I don't see the reverse being true though (I'm not sure where Lee is coming from in KLG1).

As for Zak's death, I think that her part in his death is what makes her incapable of letting him go. And, she does seem to have put a part of her life on hold.

I'd say that Starbuck washing out the nuggets right away is indicative that Kara isn't (or at least wasn't) over her duplicity in Zak's death rather than the death itself. If it was strictly his death that was the problem it shouldn't have affected her work at all.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Billy is not Kara, doesn't have her guilt complexes, and sure as hell isn't as mentally fucked as she is.

Dualla, otoh, might be. So I suppose we should all advocate Dee not getting sex because her entire colony is dead and gone.

[zephyrrs.livejournal.com]

Really wonderful post. I agree with you on soooo many points here. I also believe the relationship is doomed. OTOH, I also think it will also happen because Kara will continue the behavior that dooms herself as a sort of sublimated punishment. Lee reminds her of Zak, but he's not Zak. Being with him will be almost what she has lost and she will continue to strive for it because he is "almost Zak" but at the same time will also cause more pain and suffering for herself because he's not Zak. She will do it because she still feels guilty and this will re-open the guilt she relishes. In fact, it will add more guilt because she'll know she's hurting the memory of Zak while also hurting Lee. Plus, she'll destroy her friendship/sibling-esque love with Lee. All in all, it will happen because it self-perpetuates he self-destructive behavior. And poor poor Lee will be devasted when he realizes she doesn't love him the way he loves her.