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woodfaceYes, I do think Kara owns most of the men on the show. Most in this case being; Zak, Helo, Lee and Anders. That's four, I don't think that's a bad start. (Oh and Adama, but that's in a completely different way so I won't be going into that issue today.)
I think I've already covered a huge part of what I'm about to say when I discussed Zak and Lee (and how I don't see Kara/Leebut RM will shove it down my throat eventually). So let me summarise; I see Zak as Kara's big break in life. I know they probably had their issues, but it's hard to pin them down as we know virtually nothing about the relationship. However, I see Zak as someone who made Kara feel good about herself. I'd like to imagine that Zak is different from his father and brother. That he is a bit more playful and light hearted and probably wasn't cut out to be a hardass pilot.
I don't buy the 'Lee is Kara's Twu Luv' thing. Yes, Lee clearly has a crush on her and Kara likes to think that she has too. Likes to. It'd so fall apart if they ever tried. (Which reminds me, if Lee and Kara get together once she's back with the fleet that means that the Cylons replaced Kara with a clone and the real Kara is tied up in a farm waiting for Anders to get her out.) It's probably completely messed up of me to think that in a way Kara had her OTP with Zak and she stopped looking for a new one.
Earlier this week, I read a post of someone comparing Helo's reaction to finding out Kara paints with what she thought would be Lee's. I agreed with what she thought Lee would do, but I disagreed with her conclusion. According to her, Lee would be interested in the paintings and he would continue to interrogate her about it. Yes, that rings true to me. Lee is inquisitive, he would want to find out what makes Kara tick. And it would annoy Kara to no end. Lee pushing her to say more about it would effectively make Kara shut down and go on the defensive. There would never have been a scene where Kara and Lee sit down and Kara actually TALKS about what she's feeling. No frakking way.
Lee pushes Kara. Lee cajoles Kara into responding to him. I love their dynamic, I love their friendship, but I don't see anything more in it. Not anything that would survive much longer than a couple of weeks (at best). Almost every conversation they have seems to be a battle of wills. (Which makes me miss the easy scenes like at the beginning of AoC.) I know this is what some shippers love about the pairing and they call it UST, but for some reason that completely passes me by. Kara is just always so defensive around Lee that I find it hard to believe that they'll ever find a sort of peace to open up to each other. Furthermore, I don't think I trust Lee with Kara's feelings. We saw him lash out in KLG in a way that is just vicious.
The strange thing is that these are actually qualities that I normally like in a OTP. For some reason it doesn't work for me here. Maybe it's the emotional incest thing yet again (I'm repeating myself, I know), or maybe it's because Kara is already strong enough and she doesn't need someone like Lee to keep pushing her as she pushes herself enough as it is. Kara doesn't need someone to rile her up. She has energy, she has attitude and she can rage perfectly well without Lee helping. It's weird that normally the clashing attracts me in a pairing, but I can not see Kara and Lee coming to rest with each other. They are not soul mates, they are not a OTP. They're mismatched and wrong and they would blow up and be unhappy with each other. And I want Kara to be happy.
Ah, Helo how I love thee. Helo is well trained by Kara. She seriously owns him. We see him happily follow her around Caprica like a puppy and their bickering is so old married couple, it's beyond cute. I already declared my love for this pairing (romantic or friendship, I like it both even if the latter is probably more canon). I loved Helo's reaction to Kara's paintings. He went "cool" and sat down like a good boy. Unlike Lee, Helo seems to know how you handle Kara. They can shout at each other, but it never turns completely ugly. They get it off their chest and no nasty after taste lingers (unlike Kara's discussions with Lee). This is why when Helo sits down in that armchair, Kara starts talking. Helo doesn't push her into the defensive (offensive?). Kara can simply be without needing to build up walls. For Starbuck, this is something rare. Not a lot of her relationships are this peaceful or easy going.
I know a lot of shippers were flailing at the thought of Anders. A lot of it gave me flashbacks for SG and the Pete thing. And like with Pete, there is no cheating here. Kara and Lee are not a OTP. There is no connection between them and Kara sleeping with Anders doesn't make her a slut. The last words Lee spoke to her were downright hurting and - as I said - vicious. Unlike Lee however, Kara is not in love. If Kara feels anything for Lee, she is in complete denial about it. Er anyway, Anders...
I agree that the timeline in The Farm was messed up. I kept wondering how much time had passed or was passing and it confused me a bit. One or two more scenes at the beginning of the episode would have been welcome, but my mind can fill in the blanks. Kara strikes me as an open character when it comes to sex. Kara wants, Kara takes/gets. Kara saw Anders and she found him a fine specimen (I agree with her), so I don't think Kara wasted any time in getting him into bed. And dude, they were cute together. (And Kara was so hot in her underwear, can we have more please?) It worked for me, this relationship was light hearted and something Kara could have used by then. I doubt Anders expected any great revelations from her. I doubt he pushed her into any confessions. They flirted, they teased and they had sex. I think that's exactly what Kara wants out of any relationship. And dude, how can you not love something that makes her look happy? The whole belly kissing and the mission whining and having sex anyway? So very much how I pictured Kara.
So yes, she breaks when she hears he is dead. I would hope she does. The poor girl already lost Zak, now she gets close to someone and loses him again. I'm not saying she lost her one true love (way too soon for that, yo), but I wouldn't have liked Kara much if she had been completely unfeeling. So when she finds him alive and then has to say goodbye again, it hurts. (And again, I love Katee in this because we might miss the background between the characters, but she does show that it is there.) I really want them to go back and fetch him. Can they? Please?
It's funny how Kara seems to wear the pants in all relationships. It's most obvious with Helo as he clearly is subject of the Kara hero worship (but not too much as he can still argue with her and be a friend). Lee is definitely the girl as he's all in touch with his inner feelings and Kara loves mocking him for it. Zak probably was as much in awe of Kara as Helo is, she was his instructor after all. Sadly enough, we don't know that much more. Maybe Anders is a bit more equal to Kara. He mocks and makes light of things as well. Frak, how much do I love that opening scene? Too frakking cute.
See, I can see Kara with pretty much anyone (except Lee and Tigh). I just want to see her happy and I don't think that Kara needs that one true love to be happy. I think she'd be happy when she can move on from her failure with Zak. That doesn't have to result in the world greatest romance. It'd be about Kara accepting herself and her inner demons, not about Lee or whoever getting on one knee and healing her. She has to do the healing, not someone else.
Or you know, maybe I'm just prejudiced and I don't really need a OTP in this show because Kara is happily frakking Sam in my mind and all is well in the world. (And omg, the opening scene and the 'we can't have sex now' and having sex anyway is SO what happens with Sam and Kara all of the time. Yay!)
*looks at post* Congratulations to anyone who actually bothered to read this entire thing through.
I think I've already covered a huge part of what I'm about to say when I discussed Zak and Lee (and how I don't see Kara/Lee
I don't buy the 'Lee is Kara's Twu Luv' thing. Yes, Lee clearly has a crush on her and Kara likes to think that she has too. Likes to. It'd so fall apart if they ever tried. (Which reminds me, if Lee and Kara get together once she's back with the fleet that means that the Cylons replaced Kara with a clone and the real Kara is tied up in a farm waiting for Anders to get her out.) It's probably completely messed up of me to think that in a way Kara had her OTP with Zak and she stopped looking for a new one.
Earlier this week, I read a post of someone comparing Helo's reaction to finding out Kara paints with what she thought would be Lee's. I agreed with what she thought Lee would do, but I disagreed with her conclusion. According to her, Lee would be interested in the paintings and he would continue to interrogate her about it. Yes, that rings true to me. Lee is inquisitive, he would want to find out what makes Kara tick. And it would annoy Kara to no end. Lee pushing her to say more about it would effectively make Kara shut down and go on the defensive. There would never have been a scene where Kara and Lee sit down and Kara actually TALKS about what she's feeling. No frakking way.
Lee pushes Kara. Lee cajoles Kara into responding to him. I love their dynamic, I love their friendship, but I don't see anything more in it. Not anything that would survive much longer than a couple of weeks (at best). Almost every conversation they have seems to be a battle of wills. (Which makes me miss the easy scenes like at the beginning of AoC.) I know this is what some shippers love about the pairing and they call it UST, but for some reason that completely passes me by. Kara is just always so defensive around Lee that I find it hard to believe that they'll ever find a sort of peace to open up to each other. Furthermore, I don't think I trust Lee with Kara's feelings. We saw him lash out in KLG in a way that is just vicious.
The strange thing is that these are actually qualities that I normally like in a OTP. For some reason it doesn't work for me here. Maybe it's the emotional incest thing yet again (I'm repeating myself, I know), or maybe it's because Kara is already strong enough and she doesn't need someone like Lee to keep pushing her as she pushes herself enough as it is. Kara doesn't need someone to rile her up. She has energy, she has attitude and she can rage perfectly well without Lee helping. It's weird that normally the clashing attracts me in a pairing, but I can not see Kara and Lee coming to rest with each other. They are not soul mates, they are not a OTP. They're mismatched and wrong and they would blow up and be unhappy with each other. And I want Kara to be happy.
Ah, Helo how I love thee. Helo is well trained by Kara. She seriously owns him. We see him happily follow her around Caprica like a puppy and their bickering is so old married couple, it's beyond cute. I already declared my love for this pairing (romantic or friendship, I like it both even if the latter is probably more canon). I loved Helo's reaction to Kara's paintings. He went "cool" and sat down like a good boy. Unlike Lee, Helo seems to know how you handle Kara. They can shout at each other, but it never turns completely ugly. They get it off their chest and no nasty after taste lingers (unlike Kara's discussions with Lee). This is why when Helo sits down in that armchair, Kara starts talking. Helo doesn't push her into the defensive (offensive?). Kara can simply be without needing to build up walls. For Starbuck, this is something rare. Not a lot of her relationships are this peaceful or easy going.
I know a lot of shippers were flailing at the thought of Anders. A lot of it gave me flashbacks for SG and the Pete thing. And like with Pete, there is no cheating here. Kara and Lee are not a OTP. There is no connection between them and Kara sleeping with Anders doesn't make her a slut. The last words Lee spoke to her were downright hurting and - as I said - vicious. Unlike Lee however, Kara is not in love. If Kara feels anything for Lee, she is in complete denial about it. Er anyway, Anders...
I agree that the timeline in The Farm was messed up. I kept wondering how much time had passed or was passing and it confused me a bit. One or two more scenes at the beginning of the episode would have been welcome, but my mind can fill in the blanks. Kara strikes me as an open character when it comes to sex. Kara wants, Kara takes/gets. Kara saw Anders and she found him a fine specimen (I agree with her), so I don't think Kara wasted any time in getting him into bed. And dude, they were cute together. (And Kara was so hot in her underwear, can we have more please?) It worked for me, this relationship was light hearted and something Kara could have used by then. I doubt Anders expected any great revelations from her. I doubt he pushed her into any confessions. They flirted, they teased and they had sex. I think that's exactly what Kara wants out of any relationship. And dude, how can you not love something that makes her look happy? The whole belly kissing and the mission whining and having sex anyway? So very much how I pictured Kara.
So yes, she breaks when she hears he is dead. I would hope she does. The poor girl already lost Zak, now she gets close to someone and loses him again. I'm not saying she lost her one true love (way too soon for that, yo), but I wouldn't have liked Kara much if she had been completely unfeeling. So when she finds him alive and then has to say goodbye again, it hurts. (And again, I love Katee in this because we might miss the background between the characters, but she does show that it is there.) I really want them to go back and fetch him. Can they? Please?
It's funny how Kara seems to wear the pants in all relationships. It's most obvious with Helo as he clearly is subject of the Kara hero worship (but not too much as he can still argue with her and be a friend). Lee is definitely the girl as he's all in touch with his inner feelings and Kara loves mocking him for it. Zak probably was as much in awe of Kara as Helo is, she was his instructor after all. Sadly enough, we don't know that much more. Maybe Anders is a bit more equal to Kara. He mocks and makes light of things as well. Frak, how much do I love that opening scene? Too frakking cute.
See, I can see Kara with pretty much anyone (except Lee and Tigh). I just want to see her happy and I don't think that Kara needs that one true love to be happy. I think she'd be happy when she can move on from her failure with Zak. That doesn't have to result in the world greatest romance. It'd be about Kara accepting herself and her inner demons, not about Lee or whoever getting on one knee and healing her. She has to do the healing, not someone else.
Or you know, maybe I'm just prejudiced and I don't really need a OTP in this show because Kara is happily frakking Sam in my mind and all is well in the world. (And omg, the opening scene and the 'we can't have sex now' and having sex anyway is SO what happens with Sam and Kara all of the time. Yay!)
*looks at post* Congratulations to anyone who actually bothered to read this entire thing through.
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 03:33 pm (UTC)I think her relationship with Helo works because he's so laid back he's almost horizontal. And yes, she totally owns him ^_^. I can see them being fuckbuddies or something, but not really romantically involved.
Thing is, you have excellent points about why Kara/Lee is all kinds of wrong. And yet, I can still see them being happy with each other. I think part of the problem with their relationship is that there's this huge attraction that they're trying to supress, so it lets itself out in other ways that end up being pretty spectacularly destructive. I think the other problem with their relationship is that they tend to project onto one another, and it sort of messes with them. But I think once they grow up a little and stop being petty, they could have something.
I'm also super-in favour of a violent on again/off again relationship, with lots of hotpilotsex. Yay angst.
Erm, tangent, sorry.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 03:41 pm (UTC)I think her relationship with Helo works because he's so laid back he's almost horizontal.
Hahaha! Yes! *loves Helo*
About Kara/Lee? Normally I would agree, but somehow I don't. And I think the projections would get in the way too much. I don't know what Lee expects Kara to be, it's clear that she let his image down in KLG however. I think that whatever Kara sees in Lee, though, is very much contorted by what she remembers of Zak. If they don't grow up and take a step back from these things, any relationship they get in to will just explode.
*sighs* Kara has had so much trouble in her life already. I don't think she needs the mess that is Lee. Heh, maybe I'm just being protective?
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 03:54 pm (UTC)Also, I think Kara leaving will prove to be a bit of a wake-up for both of them. They were getting very settled in their relationship, and then all of a sudden they're both alone going through serious trauma. And they don't have each other to fall back on. So I think it's going to make them beign to realize what they mean to each other, to use a horrible cliche.
Hmm, probably being protective ^_^
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 03:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 04:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 04:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-15 12:55 pm (UTC)I think Lee and Kara do tend to fall back on each other, at the very least in a "familiar presence" sort of way. In the mini-series when Kara hears that Lee is dead, she initially doesn't react much, but then goes and prays a special prayer for him. When he gets back to Galactica, the first person he goes to see is Kara, and they have this very awkward moment where they try to be all nonchalant about the fact that he's still alive. She then later on moves the picture of herself and Zak so that she can see Lee as well. It's not the sort of thing you'd do for someone that didn't mean a lot to you.
And this is just a couple of examples. So while you can argue either way the actual nature of the relationship between Lee and Kara, I think it's extreme to say she doesn't want him anywhere near her. While they may not communicate well, as happened when Lee was so upset with Kara in KLG1, there was still obviously a lot of repressed emotion there. I mean, after the scene where Lee is upset with Kara for going over his head to Colonel Tigh with her plan of action, Kara is trying to reach out to Lee. She's trying to apologise for her actions, because she wants to try and make him understand - or at least ask his forgiveness.
And as to Kara not cheating on Lee because they're not in a relationship, and his harsh words showing that he would rather her die, I don't think that's true either. I mean, Lee was upset set precicely because Kara DID kinda cheat on him already - with Baltar. Based on what Lee said it's also not unusual for her to do something like that. So while she may not be a "slut", it certainly seems like she has something of a reputation.
It's possible that she did think that she'd blown her chance with Lee, but I'd have to lay the blame for that at her feet, not just Lee's harsh words.
Regardless, we still have to see how this plays out in the show. I hardly think that RM is going to give us a "happily ever after" sort of relationship. These two are way too much of a train wreck for that to happen.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-15 01:07 pm (UTC)NO? Really? ;oP
I think it's extreme to say she doesn't want him anywhere near her.
I agree, which is why I never said that.
...and his harsh words showing that he would rather her die, I don't think that's true either.
I didn't say that either.
Lee was upset set precicely because Kara DID kinda cheat on him already - with Baltar.
*stares* Cheating happens within a relationship, when you say you're exclusive. Which they really never agreed upon.
So while she may not be a "slut", it certainly seems like she has something of a reputation.
Kara likes sex. She's an adult. It's her problem how much she gets or not. I never denied this. Actually, I openly said this is true.
It's possible that she did think that she'd blown her chance with Lee, but I'd have to lay the blame for that at her feet, not just Lee's harsh words.
Oh, they were both to blame, but Lee is still the one who went into a jealous rage over something and started accusing her. He's the one who used his professional position to lash out at Kara over something completely personal.
And I stand by what I said. Kara and Lee do not fall back on each other. They are friends, they might like each other presence, but I am yet to see either of them seeking each other out to deal with anything (even the silent sitting around). They don't. I never denied that they're friends, they are, I like that too. But not once has Kara gone 'omg I can't take this anymore' and turned to Lee, and he hasn't turned to her either. The only exception I can come up with is the mini and her confession about her part in Zak's death. And that was more or less a confession from a sinner to the person who got hurt by the lies.