(no subject)

[woodface]

Where are my books? *pokes mail* Come on. Please? You'll get a cookie. *whimpers*

I was having an interesting discussion on fairestcat's livejournal about torture, which ended up in a discussion about what makes BSG so appealing. *scratches head* I'm just a bit sad that my last comment got taken the wrong way as I really was having fun there.

ETA: Spoilers for Scattered and S1 one in the comments and probably on the link too.

Comments

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting. I'm not going to go jump in over there since I don't know anyone.

Personally, I think it's unrealistic to want every show on TV to be some lofty betterment of the youth of today. (If so, I'm sure as hell gonna go after some of these reality shows first.) Of course, that's a whole other issue with me, one involving ranting at lazy parents and the "child-proofing" of society...

But the torture scene - in my mind it worked *SO* well to show its uselessness.

Here you have Starbuck, who is "the hero" of the show. She's human, she follows orders, she does what she thinks is right and she's flawed. She ends up torturing a guy/cylon/enemy. But does it work? Of course not. You've spent the last eight hours torturing this man... this machine, whatever it is. And you don't have a single piece of information to show for it.

Exactly.

And then you have the social conscience of the little morality play throwing the cylon out the airlock after he shows himself to be a threat in a different way - maybe the writer's saying compassion can only be taken to a certain point? Maybe he's saying all humans will eventually suck? I'm sure someone could write an essay.

But I *really* think you can only go so far in drawing parallels to the U.S. military with this show. You can take it to a point, but in the end the cylons are meant to be evil robots with a "kill all humans" mentality - something that only lives in a fictional world.

[woodface]

Of course, that's a whole other issue with me, one involving ranting at lazy parents and the "child-proofing" of society...

Gah, maybe one day we can have a rant about that. It scares me when I hear my sister as a teacher talking about parents today. DOOM!

But the torture scene - in my mind it worked *SO* well to show its uselessness.

Exactly, that's what I loved about it too. And the duality of having Starbuck doing it was just lovely. Here's a character that I utterly adore and she's doing things that are just wrong.

See, I think BSG can teach you about morals as good as an idealistic show as Star Trek. You just have to use your brains and think for a minute.

But I *really* think you can only go so far in drawing parallels to the U.S. military with this show. You can take it to a point, but in the end the cylons are meant to be evil robots with a "kill all humans" mentality - something that only lives in a fictional world.

*nods* You're right. Although, one must wonder if they really are. Kara started to doubt that with Leoben. Was that a mistake or was she right to do so? Maybe the Cylons actually want humans to start seeing them as something more than machines, but we don't know if they are and...

In other words, I agree with you. *g*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

See, I think BSG can teach you about morals as good as an idealistic show as Star Trek. You just have to use your brains and think for a minute.

Yeah, that's one thing I really appreciate about the show - concepts aren't handed to you, tied up with a bow.

*nods* You're right. Although, one must wonder if they really are. Kara started to doubt that with Leoben. Was that a mistake or was she right to do so? Maybe the Cylons actually want humans to start seeing them as something more than machines, but we don't know if they are and...

You could go round and round with this since we *don't* know what their true purpose is yet. I'm starting to think that the whole baby/mating subplot is fake - it's just something the cylons are starting to use to string the humans along. But I could be wrong. :D

[woodface]

I'm starting to think that the whole baby/mating subplot is fake - it's just something the cylons are starting to use to string the humans along.

I'm hoping it's fake. Babies definitely are not what I want to see in this show. *fears*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

HA! His name is Lee Tyrol Starbuck Baltar. AWWWWWW!

[woodface]

Helo feels left out.

[poohmusings.livejournal.com]

Yep, have to agree with everything Michelle said. I tried to read through everyone's comments on that page, but ended up skimming once it seemed like that one person doesn't really like BSG (which is fine; to each their own) but still wanted to change BSG to please her. Basically my thoughts on the torture is that, in the BSGverse, the world, as the humans know it, is gone. Family, friends, complete strangers: they're all gone. So all bets are off. No one's thinking rationally, everyone's reacting emotionally, and that's just fine with me.

If people started to only think rationally, I'd honestly be rather concerned. (And that's actually one of my concerns with Lee's character, as it's been portrayed. Sometimes that guy is disturbingly unemotional. *shudder*) At this point, 2+ months after the Cylon attack, people are still dealing with their losses because they never had the appropriate time to grieve. Add to that the fact everyone's scared out of their minds that they might die at any second and it's the perfect recipe for short-sighted thinking, etc. Does that make torture et al right? No. But I also don't believe BSG is trying to say torture ever is right, so ... yeah.

And you, Jara, made a great point back at that other LJ. We the viewers may know that Boomer's loyalities to the Cylons are conflicted, but the others don't. Everyone on board the Galactica only see her as the person who tried to kill Adama, and Kara just knows that her entire relationship with Boomer was based on lies. Even Helo, who probably has the best sense that Boomer isn't all bad, isn't entirely convinced, which is why he shot her in KLG1.

[woodface]

*nods* You're right with what you said about Lee. He is desperately trying to cling to principles that have become somewhat hollow after the Cylon attack. That's something Adama told him "you never lose control". Lee took it as a compliment as it seems to matter to him that he holds on to what he thinks should be. So the one time that he follows his instincts, it goes wrong. I had the feeling that he was bitter about it and towards Roslin. Really not a happy Lee.

Even Helo, who probably has the best sense that Boomer isn't all bad, isn't entirely convinced, which is why he shot her in KLG1.

I think Helo is another one who is trying to cling to his sense of right. Here's a Cylon who he thought was someone he loved (and for a long time based on what Kara said too) and she's carrying his baby. The right thing to do is to keep her safe, but Kara is right, she's NOT Sharon.

Dude, I love this show.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

And that's actually one of my concerns with Lee's character, as it's been portrayed. Sometimes that guy is disturbingly unemotional. *shudder*

Hmm. Good point. OMGCYLON! ;) But yeah, he's been a bit too boy scout about the whole thing. With the annihilation of their planets, friends and family wiped out, these people should be in a very dark place right now.

[fairestcat]

Here you have Starbuck, who is "the hero" of the show. She's human, she follows orders, she does what she thinks is right and she's flawed. She ends up torturing a guy/cylon/enemy. But does it work? Of course not.

I think that's at the heart of what I love about the show and that ep in particular. We see one of our heroes do something pretty reprehinsible and it does in fact blow up in her face. But we also see that she -- all of them -- don't see what else they can do? There's no obvious better alternative to her actions. Like the rest of us, the BSG cast are stumbling around in the dark working with what information they have and that means that sometimes they completely fuck it up.

I like that about the show, but I can see how it's a very fine line. The eight words of story death -- "I don't care what happens to these people" -- that's a real risk when you start making characters too human and too flawed. The line between "flawed and human" and "just rather unpleasant and unappealing" is really quite narrow and the first time I watched that ep I was on knife-edge the whole way through praying they wouldn't cross that line.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Like the rest of us, the BSG cast are stumbling around in the dark working with what information they have and that means that sometimes they completely fuck it up.

Yep, exactly. You may have the best intentions or maybe you're temporarily clouded by a strong emotion when you end up doing something you shouldn't. Does that make you terminally flawed? Or is there the chance for redemption?

The line between "flawed and human" and "just rather unpleasant and unappealing" is really quite narrow and the first time I watched that ep I was on knife-edge the whole way through praying they wouldn't cross that line.

A classic TV/movie rule of thumb is "never kill the dog." You can have the biggest gunfight in history, but never let the dog die. Audiences won't forgive. :D I had a point in here...oh right. There are some lines that cannot be crossed. Others can, but only with part of your audience. You're right - it's a complete balancing act to find out how much you can push, and how much is crossing that line.

At least BSG doesn't have any dogs. Wait. What happened to the dagit? Did they kill off Muffet? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Damn them.

[woodface]

Wait. What happened to the dagit? Did they kill off Muffet? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Damn them.

Michelle, honey, I think it's time we get over Muffet. *pats*

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*sniff* I also want the cylon voice.

[woodface]

Maybe you should get the old series on DVD?

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

But the old series, you know, sucked!

[woodface]

And yet, you show signs of nostalgia...

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

It was a show I watched as a kid. *pats* It still sucks.

[woodface]

I think old school BSG was fun. Although, I now greatly dislike Dirk Benedict.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Because of that interview, right? Yeah, who knew he was such a knob?

[woodface]

Yeah, I was appaled. Poor Katee, though, she did that thing with him and he was all friendly to her and then he goes around writing back. She sounded disappointed in that one interview I read and they asked her about it. =o/

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

....Can we have a Turing Test law for Galactica? Anytime someone brings up Turing in relation to the Cylons, they lose the argument.

It's like Nazis, only computerized.

[woodface]

*snorfles* I'll make a request.

[fairestcat]

I was really enjoying watching that conversation, even before I got involved, thank you for that. I'm not quite sure how it took that unfortunate little left turn, but I hope I arrested it, thank you for not responding in kind btw.

I think it turned into one of those conversations where you realize the two parties are in fact having completely different conversations.

[woodface]

*chuckles* Good to know you didn't think you were being spammed. I get carried away sometimes.

But yes, I had to come to that conclusion as well.

[pollylynn.livejournal.com]

Where are my books? *pokes mail* Come on. Please? You'll get a cookie. *whimpers*

I read this. And reread it. And reread it a third time, because I was quite sure that it didn't say "Where are my boobs?" It doesn't, in case you were worried.

[woodface]

*looks down* I wasn't...