Marriage

[woodface]

Found this remark somewhere on lj: "Marriage is defined by God, not by Man."

I really suggest that said persons who use this type of banner look up the actual history of marriage (which I should do myself too). Sure, church made it their own but marriage is not something typical to christianity. The evolutions in marriage in christianity have shifted as well. I think this is very much a thing made by man and not by god.

Yes, I'm still here and kinda too nervous to do anything. EEEEEEEEEEEE!

Comments

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Alas, that's an argument that's not going to be resolved any time soon. :-/ For those to whom the Bible is the final authority on all matters, the history you're talking about doesn't mean much -- by definition it would have to follow from the creation of Adam and Eve as husband and wife.

That said, an excellent puzzle piece for your research:
The Knight, The Lady, and the Priest: The Making of Modern Marriage in Medieval France. Doesn't go all the way back, but explains a LOT about how and why the institution of marriage as we now know it in the Western world came to be.

[woodface]

Heh, Georges Duby. Should have known.

Our prof kinda explained the evolution in marriage and the involvement of priests during the middle ages.

I can't help it though, my brain refuses to ignore history. Try as I might I will never be able to fully understand people who chose to disregard history and science for faith. I can try to respect it, I will just never understand it.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Heh, Georges Duby. Should have known.

I'm pretty sure that's the only thing I've read by him, so now I'm curious why you should have known. :-)

Try as I might I will never be able to fully understand people who chose to disregard history and science for faith. I can try to respect it, I will just never understand it.

It helps to think of it as looking at them in the framework of, rather than disregarding them. That gets me part of the way there, anyway -- it doesn't hurt to look at a different conclusion drawn from the same data, and there are people drawing actual conclusions from the data, not just saying "No, no, no, 'cause the Bible doesn't say it's so."

It's not 100%, because it still comes back down to the Bible as base assumption of fact. But it does help with the understanding.

[woodface]

I'm pretty sure that's the only thing I've read by him, so now I'm curious why you should have known. :-)

He's an authority in medieval studies. You can not study it without having heard of him or his books. I read his book on the year 1000.

It's not 100%, because it still comes back down to the Bible as base assumption of fact. But it does help with the understanding.

Ah see, but this is the major problem; As historian you are taught to look at facts and then draw the conclusion. People like this start off with the bible and look to proof their theory. This is like the big bad no no they teach you at university.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

This is like the big bad no no they teach you at university.

True enough. But remembering that they're looking at the Bible as fact can get us from "respect" to "understand." (Just not to "agree." *wry g*)

[woodface]

Hmmmmm, I think I was meaning another way of understanding here.

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

Marriage goes back pre-bible, though, with the ancient mythologies and such where marriage continues to be a matter of political motivation and continuing the species and to keep "beast-like" over-sexing away from "good civilization" (if you're married, you are somewhat supposed to only sleep with that person, but you can certainly mess around with others just not to the point of "I sex everyone I meet").

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Marriage goes back pre-bible,

Yes, but for someone who takes it as literal fact, it's not possible for anything to go back pre-Genesis, in the sense of nothing can have happened before the events described there. And if one of the first events described there involving human beings in any way is a marriage, and it's pretty much described as "hey, let's make this smart critter and then make him a wife," well, that constitutes God making marriage.

I'm so not saying I agree with that view. But understanding it isn't as hard as we sometimes think.

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

The really interesting part is that I read this post right as I was waking up, and thought that the "Marriage is defined by God, not by Man" argument was actually something really great and liberal and whatever.

Like they were saying "WHO CARES what 'Marriage' is in our world? GOD is the only one who can really decide."

I think I'm optimistic in the morning.

[woodface]

Very optimistic LOL

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

:puts on spiritual!liz cap: See - and I like that interp cuz I see God as this friendly guy (yes, I think God is a guy, :sighs:) who thinks two people loving each other and being together always is kinda neat. And that we mortals have no say in the definition of really anything cuz we didn't make it, we're just existing in it for shits&giggles.

not "GOD" meaning the scary guy everyone "believes in" around here in the bible belt who has a special hell for us queers cuz we're EVIL and do EVIL THINGS.

*sighs*

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

The idea of a benevolent God is pretty hot, eh? *is a fan*

I definitely come from the spiritual tradition (as opposed to a religious tradition), where there really isn't the same kind of dogma. So yay. Yay. *does not fear God*

OMG, there were BIG GIANT SIGNS on the Pennsylvania Turnpike all saying "REPENT! GOD IS TO BE FEARED!" and stuff. Rather official-looking signs. Drive through Pennsylvania and be SAVED!

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

I fear him cuz he's crazy powerful and way cool (and I'm episcopalian so I have to be a little dogmatized) but I just don't buy the angsty God business. He's too "with it" to be all "omfg, I hate you fuckers."

*dies of laugh* I guess I need to go to Pennsylvannia...

i really hate the concept of "just say the right words" and that means that "you're a christian and saved! omfg!" re: evangelism and the spanish conquistadors saying "hey, say you're christian and we'll keep you alive and fed"

I mean seriously. I could possibly say anything under drama, pressure and threats - doesn't mean that I believe it.

From one of my favorite plays on this subject:
Silence, lord of Cumbria: My father is dead.
Roger, the Priest: He is with Christ.
Silence: Oh! I am so glad that your Christ is in Vallahalla!
-Silence

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

There are scary cross-like things at the Indiana/Illinois border on I-70....

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

Are they burning?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Sadly, no....

[vinegar-chick.livejournal.com]

"Marriage is defined by God, not by Man."

That argument is used all the time to protect polygamy. Doesn't work real well for me there either.

[amilyn.livejournal.com]

See...and I can't bring myself to care about whether folks marry one person or multiple people, whether they marry folks of the same or different genders, whether they marry someon from in or outside of their families--so long as everyone involved is an adult and consenting...I just don't think it's my business.

But then...I don't have a normal response to these ideas.

[vinegar-chick.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't care if somebody marries their goat as long as the goat can consent. The main issue with polygamy is that the dad marries his 12 year old daughter to his 45 year old brother.

[amilyn.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Yes. :-)