OMG, not Pete again.

[woodface]

While talking to splash_the_cat and lisayaeger yesterday, I think I finally managed to explain exactly why - even though I don't like Sam/Pete - I am defending it.

First off, why the meowboom is so ugly according to me is because we have two ways of life clashing. On one side you have people who believe the only thing Sam can do is wait for Jack. She has chosen the wrong guy and this makes her weak. While at the same time I believe some of these fans would bend over backwards to please Jack.

The other side are the fans who believe Sam did the right thing by moving on. I must admit that I agree with this *gasp*. But really, these are ways of life that are clashing and that's probably why neither side can let it go.

So here is my response to the objections raised. I hope it's rational and sane.

I respect Sam for moving on but I would have respected her too if she had waited. It's her decision in the end. Waiting for an impossible love is very admirable and noble. It speaks to a romantic part of us. But I am in awe that Sam loves herself enough to move on. Because that's what it is about. She gives enough about herself to try and be happy with someone else. (Something I do admire.)

Imagine it like this. Your best friend comes up to you and tells you how for 7 years now they have been in love with someone they can't have. For 7 years they have waited for something to happen that just won't and they feel miserable. They feel something is lacking their life, they're lonely and unhappy. I hope, I really hope, that at that point you encourage your friend to move on and try to be happy. Because 7 years is a long time and it can't be heatlhy. If you would condemn your friend the way Sam has been condemned for trying to move on, I very much doubt you're a great friend.

Now, some people say that it is not so much the moving on part that bugs them but that it has to be with Pete. Pete is a flawed character, he has stalker tendencies and they don't like his actions.

First of all, I don't like Pete. I don't approve of what he did and I think it could very well be a breaking point in the relationship. Or it could be this micro fracture that in time would become larger as the relationship gets strained.

Secondly, Pete did not stalk. I don't think that what he did is right but it is not stalking. It was a mistake, yes. But it is far from any sort of obsessive behavior.

Thirdly, Pete might not deserve Sam (then again who am I to judge that?) but neither does Jack. Come on, let's be straight with each other. Jack is an ass. He's sarcastic, he can be a complete jerk, he has a lot of baggage and Sam could do a whole lot better than Jack (and Pete). But you know what? We are all human. We all love people that are flawed and make mistakes. We love them even if we could do better. How many times haven't you wondered what the hell someone saw in a certain person? Does it make Sam weak to love Pete who isn't perfect? God, no. It makes her human like us. Love is a strange thing, you don't get to chose who you fall in love with, that would be way too easy.

So, that's it. That's how I see Sam and Pete (and Jack). I'm not a fan of Sam/Pete, but I don't think it allows anyone to trash Sam, Pete or the actors. Why it bugs me so much that I keep getting annoyed with it? Because it makes me wonder how people respond in real life. It makes me wonder if women really treat other women like dirt because of similar issues. It makes me realise that there is a reason why this is a "men's world". Because women are too busy backstabbing other women and judging them. Women set high standards for each other, insanely high standards that we don't demand of men and when someone fails those standards, we become vicious about it. Not only am I disappointed in some people that I've come to know online, I'm disappointed in women in general. Feminism, my ass.

Now if only I studied psychology and I could do my thesis about the projecting of women on fictional characters, show cased by the Stargate fandom.

Can I post this to the samandjack list? But make clear in the header that this is not to open a new argument, just to share a POV?

Comments

[debs7.livejournal.com]

Brilliantly said!

and the worst thing is that the people who should be reading this, never will.

Everything you wrote up there is logical and is the perfect way of looking at it.

[woodface]

Thanks, it's good to sort things out in my head instead of wading through a mix of emotions about it.

I would make this an open post but I really don't want to bother the people on my flist who aren't involved in fandom. Or let me real friends think I'm completely insane *g* Okay, not that that would be news to them.

OT

[woodface]

Dude, this is poetical: "Thread started by a crimson wave of regret"

*giggles* Yes, I'm easily amused.

Re: OT

[debs7.livejournal.com]

*LOL*

Isn't it brilliant! It's a line from an Evanecence (sp?) song. <_ Obviously I know the bad so well I can spell their name *g*

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was so well said. I agree on all points really. I've been trying to figure out why most of the s/j list seem to hate Sam so much and you've probably summed it up there. I mean, sometimes I want to say "If she's such a terrible person, why do you want her with your Jack anyway?"

I could go into a million points of discussion here, but it doesn't seem the time, lol.

One of the things I don't think I've seen mentioned though is that it IS possible for the woman to care about 2 men at the same time. No, it's not the healthiest situation to be in but it happens and people have to deal. Human beings are not all black and white (I'm assuming you know i don't mean race-wise, lol), they're all shades of grey.

And posting to the list? Well... I'd back you up there if you wanted to, but we all know that most of them don't want to change their view and won't. The last time I posted anything logical, I basically posted two replies that were actual discussion and then spent the rest of the day defending my words against people who took them out of context or snipped only part of my post and changed the meaning. It sucked.

[woodface]

One of the things I don't think I've seen mentioned though is that it IS possible for the woman to care about 2 men at the same time. No, it's not the healthiest situation to be in but it happens and people have to deal. Human beings are not all black and white (I'm assuming you know i don't mean race-wise, lol), they're all shades of grey.

True but then I don't think that is really in love with Jack. She cares for him etc but I don't think it has gotten to that point yet. There's potential though and I honestly think that Sam cares about Jack in a way that she will never care about Pete or anyone else for that matter.

The last time I posted anything logical, I basically posted two replies that were actual discussion and then spent the rest of the day defending my words against people who took them out of context or snipped only part of my post and changed the meaning. It sucked.

Oh yeah, don't I know it. I just don't feel like starting the whole argument again but I doubt if I do post this, that they will take it without well... arguement *g*

[debs7.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in but I couldn't resist.

One of the things I don't think I've seen mentioned though is that it IS possible for the woman to care about 2 men at the same time. No, it's not the healthiest situation to be in but it happens and people have to deal. Human beings are not all black and white (I'm assuming you know i don't mean race-wise, lol), they're all shades of grey.

The things is that Sam and Jack have a connection that Sam and Pete will never have because day after day Sam and Jack have faced death together. I'm sure that creates a bond that nothing could ever destroy.

Sam has the ultimate trust in Jack because everytime they go on a mission they are trusting their lives to each other.

Sam and Pete will never have that.

[makesometime.livejournal.com]

Eee! I love you! You just wrote out exactly my thoughts on the whole thing, although I like Pete for reasons I can't quite put my finger on, considering how they wrote him.

[woodface]

Eee! I love you!

Awwwww *chucks and scuffs*

You just wrote out exactly my thoughts on the whole thing, although I like Pete for reasons I can't quite put my finger on, considering how they wrote him.

I liked him in the beginning but what they made him do changed my opinion on him. I just don't hate him. It gets a bit frustrating that even though I don't like him, I always end up defending him. But good for you ;o)

[audrich.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, and yes.
I can't say it as eloquently as you, but yes.
*tired smooch*

[woodface]

*smoooooch* Been up too long?

[indiefic.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with your take on things. Also, I don't understand why people insist on seeing Pete as the nail in the Sam/Jack coffin. Hello? In my opinion, Sam can persue a relationship with Pete that is far separate from whatever it is she has with Jack. They can't be together like that anyway and Jack gets a side of her that for both very big governmental reasons and very intimate ones as well, Pete can't know. And yes, I also enjoy seeing the girlie side of Sam that comes out around Pete because as much as I adore Sam/Jack, I don't think she could ever really be that way around him.

Oops. Didn't mean to ramble in your journal.

[woodface]

I agree with you and I think Pete is more than likely to be the reason Sam and Jack will finally get together =o)

And go ahead and ramble *g*

[stars-like-dust.livejournal.com]

Well put, honey. Agree with you.

*SMOOCH*

(Go forth and post. Please. I'll defend you to the death!)

[woodface]

*giggles* Thanks, hon. *smooooooooooches*

You just love being my knight in shining armour ;o)

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

*SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCH*

Have I told you how much you rock, lately?

[woodface]

*thinks* Hmmmmm, I don't think so. So please go ahead ;o)

*smoooooooooooooch*

[stars-like-dust.livejournal.com]

I offered to brandish a sword for her, if she posts. *g*

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Because it makes me wonder how people respond in real life. It makes me wonder if women really treat other women like dirt because of similar issues.

Hmm. I didn't clip more because I think that's the gist of it. You were also mentioning how we would treat Sam if she were a RL friend. In college, people I knew always had opinions about the guys other people were dating. My roommate would complain, nag, and show blatand disapproval of a guy I was interested in. Girls would gather to tell a girl that the guy she was with was just feeding her a line.

And we did hold each other to high standards. One of my friends, (who always freely gave relationship advice to everyone else) had a lifelong dream of becoming a missionary nurse. She spoke of it with passion similar to the passion I imagine Sam did about being an astronaut. She was full of high morals and high ideals. One summer she met a guy with low morals and no ideals. Within a few months, he had reduced her to someone I just didn't know anymore. I was sad to have lost my best friend.

I probably see her in Sam. So I guess you could say I'm projecting.

[woodface]

Well, if Pete were abusive I certainly wouldn't have said all this, but he isn't.

I don't know what happened to your friend though. Either the guy was really bad news and it went the wrong way (and yeah, sometimes that happens) or perhaps she didn't see it as bad. I can't tell but it's not easy to lose someone.

But yeah, it's probably projecting because I hardly think Pete is abusive or bad news.

[sharim.livejournal.com]

You were also mentioning how we would treat Sam if she were a RL friend.

And I think this is where the major flaw with Sam comes in here - she's not a real life friend. She's a fictional TV character that many women look to as a role model, and as such, they expect her to be perfect.

It hurts when perfection falls off the pedestal and that bronze plating chips off to reveal a statue that isn't made entirely of gold, you know?

At the same time, I agree with what Jara's saying, but in reality most people won't see Sam as an RL friend because they expect her to be perfect.

Or, in the case of some, they think she's too perfect and therefore she is flawed. Go figure that logic out ;)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Can I post this to the samandjack list? But make clear in the header that this is not to open a new argument, just to share a POV?

You can if you want. Totally up to you.

Personally, I've gotten to the point (well, I came to that point a while ago, actually) that it's just not worth the effort to try and have a discussion with someone (or someones) who doesn't have the wherewithal to keep overreactions in check when debating/discussing an issue.

The issue isn't about me not standing up for what I believe. If someone really feels the need to debate with me, I'm not gonna run away. The issue is what is a good use of my time? Quite frankly, even feeding my virtual pet is a better use of my time than trying to talk sense at the list. Which is sad, really.

[woodface]

Heh, it will probably keep you saner.

*frowns* Okay, that doesn't make sense =oP

I don't easily give up, I guess. When I know opinons like that are out there, it bugs me. I should just inhale and ignore it but somehow I just can't.

I'm not sure about posting though because I'm wondering if admins closed the topic or not. And if it is quiet now, I don't want to start it all up again.

[sharim.livejournal.com]

Hey hun

first off, you have a beautiful LJ.

Second of all, while I totally agree with this entire discussion and think you phrased it very beautifully, I dont' fully understand how this relates to the pictures...

[woodface]

Thanks and thanks.

It doesn't relate to the pictures. You said you didn't understand why I thought their view of Sam says a lot about women. Well this explains that.