Season 7

[woodface]

Gah, okay. I just narrowly avoided making this long post but now I stumbled on another anti-ship icon (I am really getting way too insulted by these) and now I got to rant.

I went to OS just because I was curious on how they respond to the ship in LC but got distracted by such topics as "Does Jack trust Sam?" WTF?

I wonder what show they are watching because according to OS Jack doesn't trust Sam anymore in S7. Yeah, I really wonder what show they are watching. So hear are my thoughts of the complete development of Sam/Jack (in ever aspect) in S7.


Professional level

That lack of trust is sourly missing in what I have seen this season. Actually, it's the complete opposite. Ever since the first episode have we seen Jack put a lot more responsibilities on Sam's shoulders. He is really starting to prep her for her own command and it shows. A lot of times he has left her to be the judge of things. I think in a way this has to do with Jack starting to feel his own age. More and more is Sam being trusted to do what has to be done. As always, he trusts her judgement. What struck me in Grace was how Jack represented Sam's faith in herself. I'd say that those idiots who claim Jack doesn't trust Sam anymore are way off. Of course, that doesn't mean that Jack isn't worried about her but at the same time, you see that he is proud of her too. Evolution really showed that. There is a new ease between them as Sam is starting to understand what it is like to be in command.

Friendship

I think the first half of the season continues the friendship that has developped in S6. It's still tentative when it comes to anything personal but they have really falling into that "old married couple" routine. I esp love Evolution, Grace, Death Knell and Chimera to prove this. We're starting to see something new here, a certain peace that has settled between them. Esp after Grace. Jack has decided he'll give Sam the time she needs. And while I'm not jumping about Pete, I love that it has taken away some of the tension between Sam and Jack as friends. Suddenly, Sam dares to open up, to let herself rely on someone and to accept comfort. That wouldn't have happened without Pete, I think. And while they're not best friends, I think they know that the other is there no matter what.

Romance

Okay, first of all. Sam. Is. Not. A. Lovesick. Puppy. Gah!!! Come on, people. Seven seasons of pent up tension, of sucking it in and finally at the end of S7 Sam shows emotions and she's a lovesick puppy. Hear me groan. She's being human, nothing more. She realised there is more in life than work, she's opening up as a person, as a character and because of it she's a lovesick puppy. Sam has always been the one to hold back, to keep distance and to keep them following the regulations. Jack knows that and respects it so he lets her set the pace. And finally, she's starting to open up. It has improved their friendship and made it more important but I think LC was a turnabout. We have seen them in life/death situations before but Sam is different now and seeing Jack sacrifice himself once more has made Sam come to some conclusions. I think she has finally accepted her feelings for Jack and while Grace made her wan to get over them, I think LC showed her she won't be able to do that. So yeah, I'm optimistic about S8. If they ignore this, there will be hell to pay ;o)

But seriously, what is up with the Sam bashing? Geez! I don't know why all frustrations must be dumped on Sam's head. And mostly using arguments that I just can not see in the series. Maybe I'm blind because I love her so much. But come on, she has never had any "unprofessional behaviour" as they like to put it when it comes to Jack. Well okay, one exception; Lost Paradise. Hmmmm, I do realise this all has a Sam POV. Maybe when I feel up to it, I'll do a Jack one ;o)

Ow yeah, one more thing. Jack didn't want to talk to Sam in LC. But I think there was a completely different reason than him not trusting her with personal info *rolls eyes*. Jack just didn't want her to take his confessions or talk as if he would never come back. I don't think he wanted a confession about her feelings from her for the same reasons. He had troubles talking to her, yes. But he just wanted her to stay with him. Nothing more, just her companionship. Dude, how much do I love that scene?

Yeah, I really should stay away from OS.


PS: Say mrv3000, have you giving the OTP icon any thoughts? ;o)

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Okay, first of all. Sam. Is. Not. A. Lovesick. Puppy. Gah!!! Come on, people. Seven seasons of pent up tension, of sucking it in and finally at the end of S7 Sam shows emotions and she's a lovesick puppy. Hear me groan.

It's not so much her inherent lameness as it is occasional sloppy writing. Cuz, really, there are many many ways in which I could totally dig Sam's Jacklove. Just... not the way they do it sometimes.

Yeah, I really should stay away from OS.

The whu?

[woodface]

It's not so much her inherent lameness as it is occasional sloppy writing.

Okay, what do you understand under sloppy or what exactly strikes you as sloppy? I'm curious.

The whu?

It's a forum that pretends to be for the whole team but 95% of the time ends up bashing ship and/or Sam. They used to be the site that did the campaign to get MS back on SG.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Okay, what do you understand under sloppy or what exactly strikes you as sloppy? I'm curious.

*tries to think of specific examples* Err... well, she's all strong and slightly repressed and totally in control that notwithstanding and then is all "Jack! He is my one true lifebond love!" And the lapses in shippiness that mean it has to be sledgehammered into us when it's suddenly there again.

[woodface]

See, the problem is I just don't see that lapsing. I really don't. Like I said; yes, it's there in Lost Paradise for a second but I can't see anything else. Sure, there is ship but to me the cracks that do show in Sam's behaviour are only human and very rare.

[ex-spockette108.livejournal.com]

First things first - hi, nice to meet you! I've seen you around a few places, and I just read this post on my friendsfriend list. =)

Okay, what do you understand under sloppy or what exactly strikes you as sloppy? I'm curious.

Well, in my opinion, and I don't speak for nos', (even though I am her Minion of Evil), it occurs a LOT.

Divide and Conquer, for example. The way Sam automatically jumps to the conclusion that "he stayed because of his Twue Wuv for me!" when it could just have easily have been that he stayed because she's a friend? And he would have done the exact same thing for Daniel or Teal'c. But Sam is all about the "OMG! It Twue Wuv!"

A Hundred Days - if you watch it with the 'ship in mind, Sam stays home pining over Jack and trying to get him home. Jack realises "hey, I'm probably not gonna go home!" and promptly starts having sex with Laira.

In general - the interaction between Sam/Jack really shows (to me, anyway) that Sam is yet again, all about the Twue Wuv. Jack doesn't treat Sam any different than he does the rest of the team - the flirty, jokey thing he does with her? He does that with Teal'c and Daniel, and heck, even Hammond!, and I don't see too many people with Jack/Hammond as an OTP (although, I would so love anybody who did).

When the Sledgehammer Of 'Ship shows up to beat us all around a bit, it's usually something to do with Sam - like in Paradise Lost, when Sam was sitting in the dark, crying (and really, aside from the AngstyTeenGoths, who does that?) over Jack, it's in A Hundred Days, where she angsts over him (and he just gets over it), and it's in other episodes that I am far too lazy to think of right now.

*climbs off soapbox* Okay, I'm done.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

I went to OS

*swats Jara*

just because I was curious

BAD SQUISHY! BAD!

on how they respond to the ship in LC but got distracted by such topics as "Does Jack trust Sam?" WTF?

Turn away now. Or back a few hours ago...whenever you posted this.

It's...it's like a Jack/Daniel shipper going to samandjack to see how S/J shippers responded to the Jack/Daniel elevator scene!

BAD SQUISHY.

Sam bashing because she is in the way of the OTP! Not unlike Daniel bashing from other areas.

Nutsos. All of them! Nutters!

Of course, that kind of discussion *does* seem to temporarily keep people from discussing their latest menstrual flow and/or orgasm.

Wait. I'm getting groups confused.

These are insane waters that we swim in.

PS: Say mrv3000, have you giving the OTP icon any thoughts? ;o)

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Whoops. That was only about 3 months ago, right?

[woodface]

*swats Jara*

Meep!

BAD SQUISHY! BAD!

*hangs head in shame* Sowwy =o(

It's...it's like a Jack/Daniel shipper going to samandjack to see how S/J shippers responded to the Jack/Daniel elevator scene!

Techinically OS says they are for the whole team and there are some shippers around too. I just wonder how the hell they survive in there though. I was just curious about reactions (god knows why).

BAD SQUISHY.

I KNOW!! *heads droops even more*

Sam bashing because she is in the way of the OTP! Not unlike Daniel bashing from other areas.

*sighs* Btw, are you implying Daniel is in the way of SJ OTP? ;o)

Of course, that kind of discussion *does* seem to temporarily keep people from discussing their latest menstrual flow and/or orgasm.

Well that is a *huge* plus.

Wait. I'm getting groups confused.

Oh whoops. Damn you and sucking me in with your logic!

These are insane waters that we swim in.

*snerks* Well they do hold you *smiles sweetly*

That was only about 3 months ago, right?

I tihnk a month or something ;o)

[ashism.livejournal.com]

Techinically OS says they are for the whole team and there are some shippers around too.

I hate that place, I want to throw things just thinking about it. It's a bashers paradise.

I went to OS just because I was curious on how they respond to the ship in LC but got distracted by such topics as "Does Jack trust Sam?" WTF?

lol, if he didn't trust her I'd be a tad worried that they went out into the field together on a regular basis, supposedly having each other's backs! You can't work as a military team together for 7 years and not establish a deep level of trust. I don't know how they can even ask that question.

[woodface]

Hi *waves *

Divide and Conquer

I don't think she automatically jumped to any conclusions. I heard nostalgia say this on her lj before and I really do not agree. I think they both are able to read each other very well and the emotions in that scene were very clear.

Hundred Days

I wouldn't call it pining. She was actually the only one working on a way to get Jack home. Sex with Laira *sighs* He waited until the very last day so not promptly. But yeah, some issues are there, I agree with that.

In general

Hmmmm, no I don't agree here either. Joking is a lot different from flirting and actually, I don't think Jack flirts all that much with Sam. That is certainly not why I see ship. Sure, sometimes it's fun but it doesn't make the ship. Now I'm trying to find what does make it ship but it's kinda hard to define. It's chemistry, it's the way they read each other, the way they work together, know each other etc.

And nope, still don't agree on the ship usually coming from Sam. It's Jack who comes up with fishing invitations, he was even crying when Jolinar took over, the Entity, Window of Opportunity (yeah, Jack resigns to kiss her, don't see him doing that for anyone else), Desperate Measures, Meta, D&C, (and there are heaps of other eps I can't think of or won't be obvious enough) ...

I won't deny that Sam never does anything shippy. I'm just saying that she controls it more and whne it happens it's only under extreme circumstances.

Dude, I could probably keep going for a very long time ;o)

[woodface]

It's a bashers paradise.

Dude! Right on!

lol, if he didn't trust her I'd be a tad worried that they went out into the field together on a regular basis, supposedly having each other's backs! You can't work as a military team together for 7 years and not establish a deep level of trust. I don't know how they can even ask that question.

So agree! I really was wondering what show they were watching. Jack has been giving her so much responsibilities in S7, we should be worried if he didn't trust her with them!

[woodface]

PS: About Sam's projecting in D&C. I do not see Jack looking at Teal'c or Daniel like that *ever*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's Jack who comes up with fishing invitations,

Yeah, but he asked Daniel first that time... ;)

Window of Opportunity (yeah, Jack resigns to kiss her, don't see him doing that for anyone else)

Though there isn't really anyone else he could have jumped. OK, maybe Janet. I think he probably did want to get it on with her, but still there's the issue about the fact he knew there would be no consequence (he even left it to the very last minute).

[woodface]

Yeah, but he asked Daniel first that time... ;)

*snerks* He doesn't give Daniel mysterious looks about it though.

I think he probably did want to get it on with her, but still there's the issue about the fact he knew there would be no consequence (he even left it to the very last minute).

Actually you're forgetting one thing here. He resigned first. He knew there was a chance it could go wrong. And besides that, it shows how much he does respect Sam and her career.

But yeah, pretty sure he did it cause he wanted to kiss Sam and not just to kiss someone.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Actually you're forgetting one thing here. He resigned first. He knew there was a chance it could go wrong. And besides that, it shows how much he does respect Sam and her career.

Or he just reckoned she wouldn't let him do it otherwise... :P

[woodface]

Or he just reckoned she wouldn't let him do it otherwise... :P

Hmmmm, that's another way to look at it. Could be both *g*

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

if you watch it with the 'ship in mind

And that right there is the main reason the concept of ship drives me batty. Because as soon as you throw ship into the equation, any action of the characters is defined in terms of the ship, not the individual characters. In every one of the instances noted, if Sam weren't assumed to be "in love" with Jack, her actions would most likely be seen as actions for a close friend and teammate (which, IMO, they still ARE). So suddenly Sam isn't concerned for a friend (and she's had significantly emotional moments over both Daniel (Fire and Water and Meridian come immediately to mind) and Teal'c too (blanking on ep name), not to mention Cassie and Janet), but pining/angsting/swooning over her soul mate. Which, frankly, I just don't see.

Maybe it's just my perceptions of the character and the ship, but I'd not qualify the majority of Sam's actions as overtly about romantic love regarding Jack. I'd give you, maybe D&C (but I don't entirely agree with your assessment of it), Paradise Lost (with qualifications) definitely Grace and the end of LC2, but in context to the increased and overt emphasis on the romance angle in S7, those make sense. And yes, sometimes they do write it with a sledgehammer (the end of 100 Days, and the end of LC2, for example), but SG has handled it better than 90% of the tv shows out there, so I'll cut them some slack.

I look at Sam and Jack's interactions through the lense of ship and don't see Twue Wuv, but two kinda screwed-up people who have a deep affection, a close friendship and a boatload of sexual tension. All of which could, someday, blossom into romantic love if they ever have a chance to interact with each other outside their current relationship structure. I think they love each other yes, deeply even, but I don't see them as the stereotype of "in love" right now. They have the potential, not the kinetic. And while a lot of shippers perceive that them having a romantic relationship now, I don't agree with that view.

But it really is all in how you perceive the characters and the relationship. I just personally don't see Sam being about sap-tastic romance where Jack is concerned.

And now I shall shut up :)

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Techinically OS says they are for the whole team

See, I can say I'm a short, pink duck...

and there are some shippers around too. I just wonder how the hell they survive in there though.

Poor schmoes.

I was just curious about reactions (god knows why).

Heh.

*sighs* Btw, are you implying Daniel is in the way of SJ OTP? ;o)

So very easy to come away with that impression when you read the nutters from a different place. Although, I have to admit there haven't been any "Daniel is the anti-Christ"-type posts in a looooong time. Either that or I just don't pay much attention nowadays.

Well that is a *huge* plus.

*shudders*

To the tune of Beethoven's 5th:

Nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares nobody cares nobody cares.
Nobody cares nobody cares nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody frick-in' caaaaaaares!

Oh whoops. Damn you and sucking me in with your logic!

I was being logical? *g*

*snerks* Well they do hold you *smiles sweetly*

*does the backstroke*

Hmm?

I tihnk a month or something ;o)

Heh heh.

[woodface]

See, I can say I'm a short, pink duck...

*gasp* You mean you aren't?

Although, I have to admit there haven't been any "Daniel is the anti-Christ"-type posts in a looooong time. Either that or I just don't pay much attention nowadays.

Hmmm, I normally just avoid any kind of people who post anti-anyone things so I wouldn't know.

To the tune of Beethoven's 5th:

Nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares nobody cares nobody cares.
Nobody cares nobody cares nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares.
Nobody frick-in' caaaaaaares!

*listens* *applauds* More more!

I was being logical? *g*

I know! Surprising, huh? ;o)

[woodface]

I just personally don't see Sam being about sap-tastic romance where Jack is concerned.

*snerks* I think Jack would be the sap in the relationship *runs off giggling*

But well put, I like the view you have on their relationship =o)

I've been wondering this for a while now.

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Divide and Conquer, for example. The way Sam automatically jumps to the conclusion that "he stayed because of his Twue Wuv for me!" when it could just have easily have been that he stayed because she's a friend? And he would have done the exact same thing for Daniel or Teal'c. But Sam is all about the "OMG! It Twue Wuv!"

I'm genuinely curious about this; because I don't (personally) know too many people who didn't get D&C, although I knew you existed.

Why wouldn't Jack and Sam have simply cleared the matter up with the Za'tark detector in the first place if that was the case? I do agree that Jack would have done the same thing for Daniel or Teal'c; so why does he try to avoid that part of the event in question? It would seem that he felt that he had something to hide. When asked how he felt, he didn't say that he was about to loose a teammate or friend; he thought he was going to lose someone he cared more about than he was supposed to. Why would he say that (risking court marshial) if it wasn't true?

Sam is not a lovesick puppy.

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

And, on a professional level, Jack flat-out said in LC2 that he trusts her to command the team (including him.) He said, "I trust you." He didn't put any limitations on that statement.

Re: Sam is not a lovesick puppy.

[woodface]

And, on a professional level, Jack flat-out said in LC2 that he trusts her to command the team (including him.) He said, "I trust you." He didn't put any limitations on that statement.

*nods* I think OS is watching a different show than us.

Re: I've been wondering this for a while now.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Why wouldn't Jack and Sam have simply cleared the matter up with the Za'tark detector in the first place if that was the case? I do agree that Jack would have done the same thing for Daniel or Teal'c; so why does he try to avoid that part of the event in question? It would seem that he felt that he had something to hide. When asked how he felt, he didn't say that he was about to loose a teammate or friend; he thought he was going to lose someone he cared more about than he was supposed to. Why would he say that (risking court marshial) if it wasn't true?

Thing is, nothing Jack says is baiting of a court martial. He just says he cares about more than he should, which General Hammond (or whoever) could totally wilfully misinterpret as "I care about them too much in that it could potentially interfere with my command decisions." (Which makes me wonder what she said.) And he could, yeah, have had some whole nother reason. (Heck, it could have been "Oh, shag, I gonna die and Daniel will miss me for he r mi gay gay lover.")

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

In every one of the instances noted, if Sam weren't assumed to be "in love" with Jack, her actions would most likely be seen as actions for a close friend and teammate (which, IMO, they still ARE). So suddenly Sam isn't concerned for a friend (and she's had significantly emotional moments over both Daniel (Fire and Water and Meridian come immediately to mind) and Teal'c too (blanking on ep name), not to mention Cassie and Janet), but pining/angsting/swooning over her soul mate. Which, frankly, I just don't see.

It's the 'ship bit that gets me, I'll admit. Because, heck, it bugs me that it's undermining friendship and so on. (Daniel and Teal'c? Also stayed in D&C...)

And yes, sometimes they do write it with a sledgehammer (the end of 100 Days, and the end of LC2, for example), but SG has handled it better than 90% of the tv shows out there, so I'll cut them some slack.

I see that slack and cut more because we hopefully get to see Sam in a gold bikini as they take the whole Empire Strikes Back thing further.

I look at Sam and Jack's interactions through the lense of ship and don't see Twue Wuv, but two kinda screwed-up people who have a deep affection, a close friendship and a boatload of sexual tension.

Yah.

Re: I've been wondering this for a while now.

[ex-spockette108.livejournal.com]

The whole "I care about her... a lot more than I'm supposed to," bit doesn't have to mean that it's love.

In the military, you're not supposed to be close to your team members. You're supposed to trust them, yes, but you're not supposed to care about them - in military training, you're taught that if you're getting shot at or what have you, and a team member dies, you hold their dead body in front of you as a shield. And if you care about someone, you're not gonna be able to do that. You have to be able to put your team's lives at risk, you have to be able to order somebody on a suicide mission - anything to get the job done. The military are all "nooo! you can't care about a team member, for it will interfere with all the killing!"

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I saw it more as a "can't care about her, 'cause she's on my team" rather than as a "love" thing.

[woodface]

I think this just proves that you see what you want to see. People who want to see ship, see ship. People who don't, don't see it. I think however that Jack and Sam are still able to do what they have to despite. Whether they are friends or something more, they are willing to make sacrifices.

All I know is that the look he was giving Sam from behind that forcefield was a lot more than a "my teammate is gonna die" thing. Well, for me anyway.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

Because, heck, it bugs me that it's undermining friendship and so on. (Daniel and Teal'c? Also stayed in D&C...)

I guess I don't see it undermining the friendships. Because for every D&C, there's an Abyss. Okay, Teal'c gets generally screwed, but that's just because the writers horribly underuse him, not because of the ship, IMO.

To me, the friendships come through not in focused friendship/pairing eps, but in all the little moments scattered through the series. But I didn't start watching SG for the ship, and I don't keep watching it for the ship. It's just an extra facet of the show for me. I started watchign for ALL the characters, and the varied relationships between them. So the ship doesn't stand out over any other character relationship to me. But I also just don't see in Sam what you see, so that probably affects my perception of the ship.

And sometimes I wonder, at least for those of us involved in online fandom, how much of the issue with the ship is due to how it's portrayed on the show versus how it's perceived in the fandom, especially given the rabidity of some of the shippers who only watch it for the ship. Just a random thought.

[woodface]

especially given the rabidity of some of the shippers who only watch it for the ship

*sticks tongue out*

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

You're not rabid... usually. ;)

[woodface]

*snerks* Usually being the keyword here?

Dude, I love that icon!

Re: I've been wondering this for a while now.

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Sam has said that during the series, that she knows she's supposed to be detached and stuff. So, maybe it wasn't love then, but it seems that there is at least attraction. I'm one of those people who can spot the ship in every ep, but I know that doesn't have to mean love.